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This super-sized episode of “The Transmission” takes a look at “The Incident,” the two-hour season finale of the fifth season of “LOST.” Given the long, dark hiatus that lies ahead, we included an extra large helping of our own analysis, and a double order of “You All Everybody” — feedback and theories from our brilliant listeners and readers. (If a two-hour podcast isn’t your style, we’ll gladly issue a refund!) Then, in the Forward Cabin, we share our plans for the break, from a possible listener special to Comic-Con to our Season 3 rewatch.
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Segments:
- 0:00:28 Introduction
- 0:01:17 “LOST” in (Not Quite) 8 Minutes
- 0:10:21 Discussion
- 0:48:45 You All Everybody
- 1:50:59 The Forward Cabin
- 1:54:57 Closing
Got a comment about something mentioned in this podcast, or about the podcast itself? Have at it below. Otherwise, we encourage you to continue the main listener discussion about “The Incident” in the previous post.
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I love this site! Been checking every day since Thursday for the new podcast 🙂
One standout for me was that we don’t know the time period of the first scene. We are meant to believe that it was waaay back in history because of the boat in the distance and the fact that Jacob the mysterious is out in the open. Another thing, was that the” Irish American Egyptian” lost me and the fact that the two men on the beach spoke modern day american english… to each other. Not English english not Latin not Korean not old American english accents … modern day American. That is either an important clue or a huge mistake. It’s one way or the other.
Did the bomb need to be delivered at that time? why not an hour later, why not a week later? Wouldn’t it be the same effect? destroying the swan and the swans electromagnetic function. What was the rush? wait till things die down… walk up to the swan and destroy it.
I don’t appreciate the way you two are jokingly talk about Juliet being “a goner”. I don’t think you realize how many Juliet fans have been extremely upset and angry since the finale aired.
Many of us think she is alive and will be back next year. But if she is not, they should just come out and tell us. When other major characters died, Charlie, Eko, Micheal, etc. – we found out immediately.
what good is a cliffhanger if someone just tells you what you want to know immediately?
@Jim
Not heard the podcast yet but perhaps the reason TPTB have not come out and said she is dead is becuase either she isn’t or they want to keep the speculation alive. Remeber Jin at the end of S4, he was dead.
@soko
Surely the accent thing is nothing. Not a mistake just fans picking at details. Richard speaks no accent American too but he shouldn’t.
@ Mark at some point during the offseason, Darlton stated that Jin will be back next season. What we won’t say is if he is alive or not. They should do that here at least.
Waiting 8-9 months to find out if one of your favorite characters was killed off or not is ridiculous, especially when the actress in question is involved with another TV series. There has been a lot of fear for Juliet’s status next season because of V for over 2 months already.
If Juliet was written off the show because of the stupid Kate triangle (which could never work believably after the powerful scenes put forth by Elizabeth Mitchell and Josh Holloway) there are going to be alot of angry fans, I assure you.
@Jim
“at some point during the off season” … it’s only a few days since S5 ended, give them some time.
I predict some ‘statement’ at Comic Con. Though they got burnt a bit spoiling Michaels return so they will in all liklihood dodge the bullet unless they want to make it crystal clear she is dead. Which I think she is.
If she is dead, it will be the biggest screwup Darlton has made in the history of the show. Mark my words.
Hardly the biggest screw up. But I agree Juliet should not have died and I think the lack of instant feedback from the actress or TPTB may mean she is alive.
I guess the flash could have been a time flash caused by the electro-magnetic force being released (i.e. the incident) and the bomb never went off. Someone had the theory that the key turning was the bombs hydrogen and the electromagnetic field being vented or something like that which may mean she is alive.
Jesus I flip-flop on the Juliet dead or alive issue more than Kate on the to reset time or not to issue.
Richard speaks no accent American too but he shouldn’t.
Richard speaks the language of those around him (other languages than english as well) and lives in modern day you can practice and speak correctly without an accent if you make the effort or are given the ability.
Those two guys were in the past. Supposedly before that form of english language would have developed. The only theory is that they are two men whose lives are out of sequence with normal time, just like the 70’s losties.
Great podcast this season and thank you for all your effort. It’s wonderful to find good people and the proper subject worthy of such intelligent discussion.
A few comments about the last podcast. The references to friendship go far beyond just a mannerism or code word for the statue-worshippers. It’s been one of those oft repeated thematic nodes like “see you in another life.” Two quick examples. In “Because You Left,” Ben says to Jack that Hurley will be considerably easier to recruit than the rest of Jack’s friends because of his commission at Santa Rosa. Jack says, “they’re not my friends anymore.” To which Ben sarcastically replies “that’s the spirit.” Another example that occurs to me off the top of my head was when Hurley conned Sayid and Locke’s crew captured him at the barracks. I believe Ben says something to the effect of “I know it’s no good having friends if you can’t trust them.” Actually, the drink shared/the drink refused we’ve seen so many times may connect to this theme as well by being a polite offering of friendship (Widmore & the whiskey, Alpert and the OJ, tea, lemonade, milk, etc).
R & J enjoyed Ben’s line, “I’m a Pisces.” Soon it began to dawn on me that this is not a throwaway line either. Pisces, the sign of the fish. An earlier poster noted an oblique reference perhaps to Jacob being a “fisher of men” like Jesus. The use of fishing metaphor in the Bible and the astrological sign of Pisces tie together beautifully because this sign symbolized the nation of Israel in addition to its more obvious connotations. I learned in an astrology class once that the magi who foretold of the coming of a savior did so because of the appearance of a nova or great star in the sign of Pisces in the night sky. He who will save us all?
Why is Radzinski on button duty? What you need to consider is that Radzinski may be performing this duty in the swan hatch long after the purge occurs. In this case, the quarantined hatch is the last bastion and vestige of the DI. We know for sure that Kelvin remained in the hatch until 2001 AD (After Desmond). We know Kelvin mentored Sayid in the arts of torture in the first Gulf War. We know Kelvin and Radzinski shared the hatch for some time before the mad scientist quit this world. We also have some dates on the old blast door map if they hold up to scrutiny. So Radzinski must still have been there well into the 90’s. I know everyone loves to hate him, but Rad has definitely become one of my favorite characters. Compelling, I mean. He too believes he’s on a mission to change the world. I think we’re going to see remorse for the colossal mistakes he has made, isolation, perhaps madness (from the sickness), and then despair. You might have a different perspective on him at the end.
There was a comment about water keeping smokey at bay. This might apply to AJ as well. AJ tosses Jacob into the fire, an element or instrument traditionally associated with the forces of evil. Fire and Water?
It would be great if that title were intentional. I fall into the unified field camp. Every question, to the greatest extent possible, should come together in a single, elegant explanation. Everything that rises must converge.
On Rose and Bernard as Adam and Eve. I get the idea of their love and harmony making them good candidates for the pair who lived together and did not die alone in this little eden. It’s the black and white stones that make me disinclined to accept this theory. I think those stones still have a deeper symbolic significance and Rose and Bernard have now retired from the game.
Loved the comment about Locke’s shoes and Jesse Again noting the items Hurley had in possession and the backgammon game. Hurley’s a beast at every game from table tennis to horseshoes. Walt’s the only one who ever beat him–at backgammon no less.
Defend the island.
Astronomy class.
Here’s my take on things. Enjoy.
http://stations.espn.go.com/stations/710espn/blog?id=3937846&post=4169812
To the caller who speculated as to why Richard claimed that “Jacob made me this way,” here’s your answer. Richard arrived on the Black Rock, which was the ship in the opening sequence. That took place in the mid-1800’s. Ben was able to kill Jacob because Ben was, at that time, the real leader on the island. What’s more, I think we have to believe that Jacob and “the man in black” are incapable of murdering each other. Look, whether they’re Jacob and Esau, the Devil and God, good and evil, the bottom line is this: you can’t have one without the other. We’ve seen themes of balance run throughout all five seasons of LOST. If everyone is good, no one will be; without evil, there can be no good. I know this is all over the place, but so be it. I’m exhausted.
Typing this as I listen…
The Loophole:
“Esau” found a loophole by which he was able to “kill” Jacob. To me, the fact that he found this loophole doesn’t make the loophole equal to the way it gets used. The loophole is used to manipulate both Ben and Locke to drive Ben to kill Jacob. But this is the use of loophole, not the loophole itself. I still am not sure what the loophole is, but my current bias is that the time travel is the loophole, because it allowed the scenario to be created. More specifically, the loophole regards Faraday and his discovery of time travel, which is circular, because Faraday solves time travel (in his past) by having his future time-traveling self tell Desmond to do something in the past.
Jacob’s influences on the Losties:
I don’t believe that Jacob is benevolent with regard to the Losties. They are to him pawn pieces to be used for his purposes, which we have not yet seen (other than to get them to come to the island). Jacob’s actions don’t lead them to being better people or being less troubled, but actually the reverse. This is extreme in Sayid’s case because Jacob could have acted a few seconds earlier and saved Nadia as well. But he didn’t because he must have needed/wanted for Sayid to become Ben’s tortured assassin.
Jacob’s request to Ilana:
We see that they know each other. Jacob is wearing dark colored gloves and doesn’t touch her. Jacob asks for her help. I believe that request is to capture Sayid and have him be on Ajira 316, so that he will be on island for “The Convergence.”
Jacob & Esau as Good and Bad:
Do not be so quick to judge “Esau” as bad or evil. I don’t think so at all. I’ve got some big concerns that Jacob isn’t quite the “good” guy that many have concluded.
Characters vs. Plot advancement:
I do agree that the characters have acted in lamentably trite ways in service to advance the plot. Characters should drive plot by their motivations. It seems to me that with the current state of Lost, the characters’ motivations are constructed to serve the plot.
The Guitar Case:
It is much much too overtly important – an object given by Jacob to Hurley – to not serve a purpose in Season 6.
Where is Desmond?
Desmond has served his purpose(s): he got Charlie to where Charlie could disable the jammer so that the Freighter could come to the island, and to be an agent (of Esau) to open The Loophole.
Will Desmond appear again?
Well, if the fans keep clamoring for him, we’ll get another Rose & Ben type of scene: Des and Penny and little Charlie are living happily on their sailboat.
Character regression:
Only those characters touched by Jacob regress. Juliet didn’t regress. As best we know, jacob didn’t touch Juliet. More evidence that Jacob isn’t “good” but is using people for his own purposes.
Will we get answers to everything:
No. But I believe this is because one of the messages of the show is “you can’t know.” You can’t know the truth, with certainty, either by Faith or by Science.
Jughead:
An H-bomb is big. Within it is a fissile bomb, a small one of which (10 ton TNT equivalent) is of the size (and weight) of the device carried by Sayid.
Ben:
He’s down, but not out. When he sees Locke’s dead body, he is going to be a re-awakened: a dragon filled with a terrible resolve (for revenge).
“Live together, die alone”
Ben & Rose are the counterpoint to this. I also believe this is a Big Question being raised by the show: will be (as humans) learn to live together and not dies alone. I believe also this is pertinent to the “argument” between Jacob and Esau – will they learn to live together and not die alone.
“My friend”
It is a phrase — used in some cultures that in no way implies “friendship.”
Convergence
O’Connor’s book (Everything that rises must converge) I believe telegraph’s “convergence” as much as its content suggests the nature of humanity. So, as “They’re coming” implies convergence, what is it that rises?
Smoke Monster:
I believe that the Smoke Monster is its own thing, Cerberus, a security system. That said, Esau can take its form as well.
Pawns?
Are we all but pawns on the gameboard of Life as manipulated by demigods? Oh, come now, hasn’t the Enlightenment put that sort of thinking to rest?
The Bigger Battle
Sure, each season we see the conflict we’ve been exposed to exists within a more subsuming context. I suspect that Season 6 will show us that perhaps even the battle of Jacob and Esau exists within an encompassing context.
OMG, you included my blog post:D:D I’m jumping up and down here:D
You know, Transmission is really my only link to Lost fans, none of my friends here are as invested in the show as I am. The last season shown on TV here was the 4th and not that many people are up-to-date with season five.
I will be following you throughout the summer.
Take care!
Hey guys! First time responding!
I first want say that I disagree with you and everyone else that thinks that the “loophole” is that the “leader” can kill Jacob.
I do not even think Ben is the leader anymore at all. Locke was made the leader before he died (when Ben moved the wheel). Its an awfully big assumption that when a leader dies the previous leader is then back to being the leader. If that were the case then Widmore would just have to kill Ben in order to be restored to the leadership position (not a bad theory actually).
That doesn’t sit with me well though. I am sure they have a better system than that.
I think the loophole is probably very complicated and will make us look at every one of Christain and F-Locke’s moves. It may have to do with Ben being healed in the temple. Anyway, I have more thoughts, but thats all for now!
@Jim
I agree about Juliet. Knowing that the writers have some flexibility in who to keep and who to kill off (like how they brought back Alpert with ease after he departed for Kane for year), I would prefer to have seen them keep Juliets character atound as she is one of the most talented actors in the show. Losing her, and keeping Desmond in the background seems a terrible waste of acting talent. With Elizabeth Mitchell signed up for a big role in the remake of ‘V’, I fear we wont be seeing any more of her…
Richard Alpert says that he saw the Losty’s Die before the death of Jacob, surely in order for this to happen the next season will not open with them in the future?
thanks!
Alpert only got bought back when Kane was cancelled due to the writers strike.
According to her imdb page http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0593310/ Elizabeth Mitchell is playing Erica Evans in V …. and according to this http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/jan/27/abc-to-remake-sci-fi-series-v Erica Evean is the main character.
Sorry and as much as I’ll miss her Juliet is dead and gone and won’t be back other than maybe as a “ghost” for a single scene.
Haven’t listen to the whole program yet, but I really like the idea of Juliet waking up in the forest àla Desmond after he turned the failsafe key. It seems like many people, not just me, will be upset if she’s really dead.
Also it seems like many people kind of throw away Richard’s words about seeing them all die, like maybe he didn’t mean it literally or something, but I guess there’s a reason he said it.
@sadini – Let’s just hope if she does, she doesn’t end up naked :).
Ok, Ryan & Jen – I have to call you on this one. You complained about the characters seeming to regress in this episode and you point out Sawyer not wanting to go back & save the people on the island from Jack’s bomb. Fair enough. But then a minute later you are complaining that he didn’t kill Phil! Sawyer killing people just because they ticked him off is the very definition of regression for his character.
There is a difference between the people who die on the island and those who die off the island. When Richard first met Ben and Ben told him that he saw his mother on the island and she was dead, Richard specifically asked if she died on the island.
Charlie died in the water. The bodies of the others were deposited in the water. Both off island. Charlie is an authentic apparition or perhaps a manifestation of Jacob who unlike like Anti-Jacob has shown the ability to act off island.
Locke being touched by Jacob was in order to consecrate his body and prevent anti-Jacob from taking it completely. Locke’s body being on the island has a purpose. Remember Claire’s dream of a Locke with one eye black and the other white. And Walt’s dream is highly important. Walt told Locke in The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham that he saw John in a suit surrounded by many people who wanted to hurt him. Either we are going to have a Dark Locke vs. a Light Locke or a continuation of the first season conflict between Jack vs. Locke but on a much larger scale., cosmic scale.
I would assume it is safe to say that the forms Jacob and anti-Jacob have taken as their own are not their original forms if they have such forms. They are concepts not persons. Can you really kill and idea? You can kill the person, or the vessel they inhabit but you can’t kill an idea so easily. After Jacobs current form is destroyed he will take on another form only a CANDIDATE has to be chosen as a vessel.
I just finished listening to the podcast last night and just caught up on reading everyone’s thoughts today so I’m going to separate into a couple posts …
soko said: “… the fact that the two men on the beach spoke modern day american english… to each other. Not English english not Latin not Korean not old American english accents … modern day American. That is either an important clue or a huge mistake. It’s one way or the other.”
I think you make a good point that Latin seems to have some tie to Jacob considering the fact that Richard’s response to Ilana was in Latin. But I think that had those men been speaking in any language, accent or dialect *to each other* different than what the primary targeted audience uses (I know that the creators are aware that people all over the world watch Lost but since they work for ABC …), it would have grounded Jacob and AJ and perhaps implied a specific origin. I think that it is likely that Jacob and AJ are immortal, whether they are gods, angels, whatever, and have been around even before Latin or other known languages. It may have seemed jarring to many that these men seem so Americanized but I believe it was done to not give the audience the chance to say “well, they must be from this time period.”
soko said: “destroying the swan and the swans electromagnetic function. What was the rush? wait till things die down… walk up to the swan and destroy it.” I think it is likely that things wouldn’t die down. It would have continued pulling in anything and everything with any kind of metal until the earth imploded had they not done that. Radzinski caused the Incident by drilling so far … Juliet stopped it from continuing by detonating the bomb. There is still electromagnetic energy that has to be released with the button but it is not until Desmond turns the fail-save key (likely denoting a more powerful and more specifically concentrated to destroy this electromagnetic energy) which completely neutralized the site.
Re: Rose and Bernard as Adam and Eve. I like the idea and I think it is very possible that would be the answer given if the producers were to ever answer it off screen. On screen, it might be a little trickier as some have pointed out that Jack felt like the bodies had been dead for at least 50 years. So unless Rose and Bernard time travel back in time again and die in the early 1950s or so, I’m not really sure how it could be them. If it stays off screen, it would be pretty easy to say that somehow Rose and Bernard got on a different time track than everyone else (assuming that timetravel is done or almost done like people seem to think … did the Damon and Carlton come out and say it was over after this season?) and to use your imagination as to how they came to die in the caves. If we get Adam and Eve addressed at all on screen, I think it is more likely to occur in flashback and to be someone other than Rose and Bernard.
Re Jesse Again and Hurley … I like all the observations a lot. I’d be very surprised if it turned out to be just a coincedence that Hurley had taken from him and returned to him in jail the same or similar to what Jacob gave Kate, Sawyer and Jack. I don’t know if those items are of particular use or anything but it is likely a hint towards Hurley’s importance. And I really love the idea that Hurley being blessed in playing games will help him next season.
@Zhami – great catch on Jacob never touching Ilana and even wearing dark gloves when visiting her. I’m not sure what it means but it’s got to be important. You may be right that Jacob needed her to bring Sayid back to the Island but I think there is probably even more to it than that.
Also @Zhami but really, a lot of fans have been saying that the only reason we got the Rose and Bernard scene in the finale is because we, the fans, had been so persistent in asking where they were. I have a feeling that scene was written before the fans even knew to be asking where Rose and Bernard were. Didn’t the finish shooting around the time of 316 airing or so? Yes, Rose and Bernard weren’t in a couple episodes prior to that but not enough that people started clamoring for them. I also doubt personally that we’re through with Desmond and Penny.
@Zhami re: character regression – Jacob touches the characters at different points in their lives so at what point are we marking regression? People definitely grow and change but it’s not linear and people still make the same mistakes on their path toward growth. I remember having similar conversations with fans when they were frustrated with Charlie for falling into the same traps multiple times. Why would the other Losties be exempt from nonlinear growth when it’s a pattern we’ve seen over and over again in the show?
@Zhami re: live together, die alone – I like how you connect that to the argument between Jacob and Esau/AJ. I don’t think that it’s just “will they learn to live together and not die alone” but also that Esau/AJ believes that bringing people together only corrupts them and “ends” in death and destruction. Jacob believes that humans are capable of living together so that they don’t die alone.
Re Smoke Monster and Jacob and AJ – a lot of people have been wondering if the Smoke Monster is AJ or if it works together with AJ or with Jacob or what. I like the idea that the Smoke Monster is a free agent and works for the Island. Sometimes, it works out that the Smoke Monster is helping Jacob and sometimes it appears to be working in favor of AJ … but even that I’m not completely convinced about and I wouldn’t be completely surprised if it turns out that the Smoke Monster and AJ are one in the same or even if there is a light Smoke Monster that is Jacob. If there is a separate entity that is the Smoke Monster and not either AJ or Jacob, though, I really hope that AJ and Jacob can’t just take the form of the Smoke Monster at will. It seems to me that there have to be some kind of rules of what AJ (we’ll stick to him since he’s the only one we’re relatively certain has posed as anyone other than himself) can pose as … if for no other reason than to not completely throw everything we’ve learned into question. It seems most likely that AJ can only take the form of something that is already dead. Otherwise, who’s to say that every time we saw Kate act one way that she wasn’t really just AJ posing as Kate? Because, as far as we know, Kate is alive and has been throughout the series so far so AJ can’t do that. I would be inclined to extend that to the Smoke Monster and say that if AJ and Smokey aren’t the same entity, then AJ cannot pose as Smokey. That’s my hope, anyway.
@Rob in Indy – good points on the loophole. I still think that the leader switch-a-roo is *part* of the loophole but I think that you’re probably right and that there is more to it that we either haven’t seen yet or haven’t been able to piece together.
@garth and sadini – I think that Richard was probably nearby … or nearby enough to see the explosion and then to know that the Losties were no where to be found after the explosion. So he thinks he saw them die but he’s wrong. Now, knowing that someone has posed as dead!Locke, will Richard be suspicious of the Losties when they return after he assumed them to be dead?
@Funky Dunky – There was a part of me that wanted Sawyer to be the one to kill Phil but I agree with you that it’s better for his character that he wasn’t the one to kill him. That said, given the chance, I’m not so sure Sawyer wouldn’t have killed Phil so without the actual option, I’m not sure we saw any evidence of progress.
I’m listening to the podcast right now and I’m really disappointed that you seem to miss that the fact that Richard thinks that Locke is special is not because Locke kept telling Richard that he was during different times (he didn’t by the way – all he said to Richard when he met him in 1954 was that Richard told him he had something to do, and that he was their leader, because Richard told him he was the leader – nothing about being “special”), but because before Locke arrived on the Island he was paralyzed, and once he arrived on the Island he could walk. That’s the only reason Richard thinks Locke is special as of 2004. Before that, Alpert had come to the conclusion that he didn’t see anything all that special in Locke, as he told Jack while they were working on moving the bomb.
It’s so right there in front of you, how can you miss it and say that it was Locke who made Richard believe he was special based on one meeting in 1954?
Jim: I think you’re hearing what you want to hear. We’re huge fans of Elizabeth Mitchell, and I personally think she and Michael Emerson are the best actors on “LOST.” We’re guessing, perhaps incorrectly, that she’s a “goner” by the way her character arc seems to have been abruptly lopped off with this season finale (and given the chatter of her other TV commitments), but we’re not happy about it. We’d love for her to pop up right alongside Hurley, Jack, Kate and the others next year.
Sky: Because Richard explains quite clearly in this very episode that he’s tracked most of Locke’s life — from before birth in the 1950s to his “test” as a child to his mentions in the 1970s (Sawyer says he’s waiting for him) — and found him unremarkable. As of 1977. As of 1977, Locke had largely set in motion all the things that, from Richard’s POV, seemed to imply his specialness. Perhaps I need to be reminded of when Richard was told about Locke’s recovery from paralysis, and how that fact blew his mind? Obviously, by 2004, Alpert was willing to see Locke succeed Ben in a position of leadership.
The episode is “The Brig.”
Richar approaches Locke:
RICHARD: It’s beautiful isn’t it. No matter how much time you spend on the Island you just never get tired of this view. We haven’t been formally introduced, I’m Richard.
[They shake hands]
RICHARD: You mind if I, join you here.
LOCKE: Nah sure.
RICHARD: He wanted to embarrass you.
LOCKE: I’m sorry?
RICHARD: Ben knew you weren’t gonna kill your own father. He put you in front of everyone in our camp just so they could all watch ya fail.
LOCKE: Why?
RICHARD: Cause when word got back here that there was a man with a broken spine on the plane who could suddenly walk again, well, people here began to get very excited because that, that could only happen to someone who was extremely special. But Ben doesn’t want anyone to think you’re special, John.
LOCKE: And why are you telling me this?
RICHARD: Ben has been wasting our time with novelties like fertility problems. We’re looking for someone to remind us that we’re here for more important reasons.
LOCKE: What do you want from me?
RICHARD: I want for you to find your purpose. And to do that, your father has to go, John. And since you’re not gonna do it, I’m gonna suggest someone else.
[He hands Locke a red folder. Locke looks at it briefly as Richard walks away]
Sky: That’s helpful. But does that suggest that Alpert’s mind about Locke’s specialness was changed by the fact of Locke’s paralysis recovery? It seemed more of a matter-of-fact reporting of how the “regular” Others were reacting to his arrival. And we have heard Alpert recently say that he’s seen the island do things that are incredible… as if Locke’s recovery from paralysis is just one in a series of miracles. It was only when Locke came back from the dead that Alpert seemed surprised by anything and out of sorts… and of course, Locke hadn’t actually come back from the dead.
In any case, I hope you’re a little less “disappointed” in us given this discussion. I simply like the idea that Richard tracked Locke’s largely unremarkable early life because it was Locke who suggested it.
I thought from that exchange from The Brig, that Richard did start to see Locke as special because he could walk again.
Locke’s recovery may be “one in a series of miracles” but the fact that Locke is the beneficiary of this particular miracle, and the miracle is that significant, is what convinces Richard that Locke is indeed “special,” and even goes so far as to help Locke secure the position of “leader” by giving him that information about Sawyer. (I guess I shouldn’t even get into the parallel between Ben telling Locke he had to kill his father and fakeLocke telling Ben he’d have to kill Jacob. Locke, being the good and decent man he was, couldn’t kill a man in cold blood – even one who treated him as badly as Anthony Cooper did – while Ben, being the vindictive, jealous, bitter man that he is, didn’t seem too hesitant about killing Jacob out of anger and resentment for being passed over by Jacob in favor of Locke). It healed a man who was told he would never walk again. If there’s been another “miracle” on the Island that is equivalent to that one, I don’t know about it, except for maybe the miracle of Richard never aging.
I will agree that Alpert’s pre-2004 meetings or searches for Locke were inspired or initiated by Locke himself, but the conclusions that Richard arrived at after those meetings seemed to have been that Locke wasn’t remarkable or “special.” How Richard could see that picture of the smoke monster drawn by a 6 six year old Locke and not conclude that little boy Locke had some sort of connection to the Island is puzzling, but that test that Richard gave Locke was bound to fail because that compass never belonged to Locke “already.” It was given by Richard to Locke to give to Richard, but it wasn’t Locke’s, he merely gave the compass that Richard gave him, back to Richard.
I think we’re supposed to believe that since Richard made no attempts to contact or recruit Locke after he was 16, Richard simply decided that if Locke was indeed special to the Island, he would somehow come to the Island on his own and there would be some sign to indicate that he was special to the Island, and that’s what happened. I will go a step further and say that the reason that Richard had that conversation with Jack about John Locke, and mentioned that he didn’t find him all that special, was in part to reveal to the audience that whatever John did in 1954 that got Richard to go to Tustin California and look little boy Locke up, it wasn’t the reason that Richard ultimately believes Locke is special, and in fact it led Richard to believe that Locke wasn’t special or important to the Island at all.
The one most significant factor in *my* belief that John is indeed special to the Island (beyond being able to walk again) is the fact that Jacob touched him and seemed to have brought him back to life after that fall. If I hadn’t seen that I might be inclined to believe that “black shirt” was responsible for John’s “miracle” on the Island, and ultimately John was just a pawn in his “plan” to kill Jacob. I think we see Jacob bringing John back to life so that the audience will one day accept the fact that he is going to bring John Locke back to life again, and we see John paralyzed until he gets to the Island so that John himself will believe that the Island is what healed him, and he will have a sort of faith in the Island that no one who doesn’t know he was paralyzed for 4 years (Jack) will be able to understand.
Yeah, it is disappointing when someone whose opinion about the show seemed so “right on the money” to me, seems to miss what I feel is pretty obvious, but I’ll get over it. 🙂 I’m a little too crazy about Locke to think that his “specialness” was a lie, and self made to boot.
Sawyer killing Phil makes no sense and would blur the morality of the character. What type of justice is killing a person because they hit your girlfriend. That’s not justice, its blood lust. In what country would we allow such a harsh punishment, certainly not in the U.S modern era. Of course i am not saying it was right of Phil but obviously Sawyer is a bit more rational than that.
Killing Phil in self defense would have been the only way the allow Sawyer to ethically kill Phil.
Does anyone have thoughts about how our different factions communicate with the main characters? There has already been a lot of speculation that A.J. (Esau) may be related to the Smoke Monster, since he’s already taken on the form of a dead person.
What about the dreams on and off the island? Here are some examples in no particular order:
– Kate’s dream with the mysterious phone call “The island needs you,” and Claire saying, “Don’t you dare bring him back.”
– Locke’s dreamwalking experience in the sweat tent with Boone.
– Eko’s dream of John and Yemi at the beechcraft site.
– Claire’s dream of John and Aaron.
– Charlie’s dream about Aaron, Claire, and his mother.
– Walt’s dream about Locke on the beach.
I’ve always felt these dreams came directly from the island. Could the island itself be an entity separate from Jacob, A.J., and the smoke monster?
@soko- I totally agree with you on the incongruity of the dialogue in that first scene. It certainly could be a production error or something we are meant to overlook, but the writers have more control over dialogue than they do anything else. I would hope, and I think, that something as glaring as a distinctly modern conversation taking place in what is clearly the 1800’s would have a reasoning behind it.
They could have adjusted this in any number of ways; it would have been difficult to have the two actors conversing in Latin or some other language, but if it had been important enough, I’m sure they would have made it happen. (The writers have also shown a neat ability to slip in and out of languages gracefully, which they could have done here if they needed to.) At the least, they could have stilted the wording and delivery somewhat so that it did not seem like the scene came entirely from our own time.
I’ve been playing with the idea that at least Jacob, and possibly Esau as well, come from the end of time, with their consciousnesses sent backward to the beginning. It’s highly unlikely, and I’m not pledging myself to this at all, but it could possibly explain both their speech patterns and the fact that Jacob apparently knew exactly when and where each major event in the characters lives was going to take place.
@ Sky & Ryan
Oh, the subtle nuances we pick apart. Based on that dialogue from “The Brig,” I believe Richard did feel that Locke was special by then. If he felt otherwise, Richard probably wouldn’t have helped John take that crucial, prerequisite step toward seizing leadership away from Ben. RA does refer to “people” getting excited instead of speaking in the first person, but maybe he has to stay a little detached in his role as advisor. But, beyond that, I cannot see how Locke failed to make a first impression on Richard. Locke strode into the others’ camp, referenced Jacob, foretold his own birth, and then vanished before Richard’s eyes. Unless the infinite loop or skipping record is old hat to RA, that visit would qualify Locke as special in my eyes.
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/sobeka.htm
^ that link talks about this Egyptian god of crocodiles. It’s gotta be the same statue we saw. VERY interesting.
The statue is undoubtedly Sobek.
After reading the link, maybe we should refer to AJ as “Set,” the Egyptian god of evil, chaos, and confusion, murderer of his brother Osiris, symbol of infertility, etc.
I’m pretty sure that in some post-finale interview or other TPTB (Damon I think) have commented that the statue is Tarawet
@soko: If the A-bomb exploded before the magnetism pocket the two of them could not compensate. Thus killing a lot on Island and maybe not destroying the pocket. After the pocket had exploded it was harder to reach the site, due to the magnetism, with a bomb.
@mick: Love your post, 100per cent agree. except the Walt vision is now true to me: Lock in a suit on a beach surrounded by people who wants to hurt him (faux-lock)
@sky: Rose not having cancer anymore is bigger than walking again. Jin making children is bigger than walking again.
@mick:Sawyer “morality”? He has changed! ok, but he already killed a poor guy of Island, a chained Sawyer on Island and… Friendly Tom surrundering! What a guy!
The statue is Tarawet… Unfertility problem is bigger an isue that we are lead to belive now.
Everyone asking why Locke became the leader. But for me the real question is why Ben became the leader? That will explain why Locke is.
From what we know: Ben was cured due to the Island. Ben killed his father. Ben casted away the former leader.
Ok, John did all that too. So the starting point was: being cured by the Island. And so when it happened he started being special to the others.
Ok just a thought I already put on the other forum but I would like some idea on that one: There are rules (and Richard is in my opinion the “referee” the keeper of the rules). One of the rules is: if you’re expeled form the Island you can’t come back. And we know this to be true due to Widmore who said so. We know that if you move the Island you are expeled. We saw that happen to Ben and John. We know that leaders can’t kill each others. Speculating from the Jacob/AJ talk and confirmed by the Ben/Widmore talk.
Now here is the loophole: Recreating flight 815 Ben came back to the Island, thus breaking a rule. But once you broke one rule, you can break the others. That’s why Ben can now kill Jacob.
The birth problem:
Tarawet was THE statue. Keepers of pregnent woman. Now two things:
One: it was shown locking away from the Island… maybe to portrait the fact that it was impossible to have baby on Island. or
Two: it had been brought down. Thus not being protective anymore.
We never saw Others with babies and we know that Ben due to his mother dying the same way is obsessed by this problem. We know from Juliette that their death happen on the 5th or 6th month of conception. So everytime they can “take” children they do.
Rousseau and Claire were behond the 6th month issue and thus could deliver their babies. But I guess if Sun had stayed on Island she would have died.
Now my problem: Amy. Two reasons: 1-What happened to Olivia? Was she killed before the truce? Did the volcano explosion caused the fall of the statue? 2-How come she had a baby? Or are we supposed to belive it was the Purge that prevent women from having children. So the quarantine is still true?
I told before how I felt about the last two seasons but I guess the woman who played Olivia was engaged somewhere else so they had to include Amy.
And Annie? I thought she was important to Ben story. But now it seems she just diseapered. And since most of the women and children left due to Pierre Chang sending them mainland before the Incident I guess we won’t learn more on that one.
@sky: Rose not having cancer anymore is bigger than walking again. Jin making children is bigger than walking again.
I don’t think that either of those examples is bigger than having a crushed spine for 4 years, being in a wheel chair for 4 years, and suddenly being able to walk again, after 4 years.
People with cancer who are declared to be terminal and near death with no hope go into remission all the time – it happens. People who are told they aren’t able to have kids and there’s no chance they ever will, end up having kids too – it happens, but I’ve never heard of a person who’s been in a wheelchair for 4 years because their spine was crushed, being able to get up and walk it off, and simply start running around, after 4 years in a wheelchair.
No comparison imo.
The deal with the babies is that a baby who is conceived off-island (like Aaron) can be born safely on-island. Babies who are conceived on-island (like Ji Yeon) cannot. So Sun would have died if she had gone into her second trimester on-island.
We have no proof that ANY babies have been conceived on-island, including Ethan, Miles, and Charlotte. They all could have been conceived off-island, then born on-island (or maybe Miles and Charlotte were born off-island, we don’t know).
Same with Daniel Faraday. I think this issue will play a big party in S6. (I also think Annie will show up at some point in S6.)
Interesting (best I can say) episode, GREAT podcast. Kudos and love to Ryan and Jen for the ‘cast and this forum.
As this is the forum for comment about the podcast–
@Michelle in Rockford– As much as I am coming to disdain theories (as 1) they are almost always wrong, and 2) they engender false expectation on the part of the theorist and the believers, which does a disservice to the appreciation of the show), I am seduced by your husbands theory regarding Desmond as Son of Jacob. Your backing rationale is sound, evidence there. Puts a wonderful spin on things given Jacobs apparent death, and the promise of not just more Desmond, but a Desmond with central and vital importance.
@Jesse Again–Big kudos! re Hurleys restored possessions and the party favors handed out by Jacob to our Losties. (Is Jesse Again a moniker? Are you really Dane Cook? Coulda fooled me.)
Me again.
Daniel clearly states his intention to deal with the Swan by exploding “a hydrogen bomb”.
Sayid solves the problem of moving it by utilizing just the’core’.
That is no longer a hydrogen bomb.
Whatever is blown up, if in fact it is blown up, is not a hydrogen bomb.
Whether Sayid did make up his mind to come along to subvert the plan, or not, he did anyway. Daniel would not call it a hydrogen bomb if that was not his intention. He’s a physicist, right? Sayid is yet conniving in my view.
@DocJKM – However, Sayid claims he is following what Daniel had in his notebook. I believe the line he says is something along the lines of “Farraday never planned on using the whole bomb.” Unless Sayid is lying in his attempt to thwart Jack’s efforts, I think they went through Daniel’s original plan.
I sent this to the email and am thankful for the response. Wanted to post it on here in case anyone else was disappointed in Juliets change of mind as well. You mentioned how Juliet really frustrated you by her change of direction in the course of the finale. When she said to Sawyer that he looked at Kate I said to myself, “What is wrong with her? Maybe Sawyer is confused on how to act cause he doesnt want to look like he is trying too hard so he has been avoiding looking at Kate. And that Juliet took a glance on the sub the wrong way.” Then I watched the episode again and saw it. In the scene with Rose and Bernard, Bernard said that he and Rose just care about being with each other. When he said that Juliet looked at Sawyer with such love in her eyes. Sawyer unfortunately had his head down when Bernard said this and instead of looking up at Juliet he slowly turned his head and looked at Kate with a sense of loss. The look on Juliets face afterward was pure hurt and sadness. I implore you to go back and look at it again because Elizabeth Mitchell is such a master of facial expressions and I know I am doing her no justice right now. That is the reason she changed her mind and that is the reason they put the flashback of her in the episode. It wasn’t as much of a plot device as I thought it was at the time I originally watched the episode.
Why does everyone assume Claire is dead and the “Smoke Monster”? It seems to me, the last time we saw her, she said, “I’m with him.” meaning Christian. That would mean either: 1. the “Smoke Monster” can use two bodies at the same time. or 2. Both Jacob and MIB inhabited the two bodies. I believe she is alive…maybe in the Temple area.