What a ride. We loved it. Some big answers, some new possibilities, and some major branches of the sprawling conspiracy tree mercifully pruned. Two hours that didn’t feel like two hours, and such delicious connections and brilliant moments that we’re a bit speechless. “I think we’re going to have to watch that again.” For now, I think we’re going to be limited to random notes and notions.
- Desmond crashed the plane. Not a huge surprise, as it was probably the most plausible explanation, but I think it was handled perfectly. On the other hand, it’s now clear the crash was an accident. So, were our survivors on the plane by design? Are all these people on this island for a reason, or not? As far as grand theories go, this knocks a few big ones out of the running.
- The last scene of this last episode, just like the first scene of this season’s opener, changes everything. (Imagine if we’d seen a glimpse of Desmond in the hatch at the end of Season One.) For the first time, we see the “outside world.” It’s still there. And people are looking for this island. What this means for Season Three boggles the mind.
- Not sure what to make of the Others. They’re not cave people, but they don’t seem particularly intense, either. (“Where’s your beard?”) Either way, it’s good to see Henry again, and that he’s clearly going to be a bit part of the next chapter. Is he “Him”? Jury’s still out. Jen picks up a very strong Kaiser Soze vibe.
- Zeke’s real name is Tom. That’s, what, five Toms in “LOST” now?
- And Desmond’s full name is Desmond David Hume. Hume being another philosopher, who just happened to have been fond of the works of John Locke.
- The button was real, the hatch was important, but both seem to have both come and gone this season. If the electromagnetic properties were what kept the island off the grid, though, and if the “fail safe” blew it all to smithereens, is the island visible again? And will weird things stop happening? I doubt it.
- How else can you hide an island? Move it. I’ve liked this theory from the beginning, as it also explains the polar bear and drug plane. Penny Widmore seems to have known enough that the island is concealed by magnetism… but Henry’s instructions to Michael and the call from the monitoring station convinces me more than ever that there’s another reason the island is so hard to find.
- Kelvin was Inman. A nice touch. But if the crash was indeed an accident, the continued emphasis on these pre-crash connections are problematic. A little hint here and there was great. Now they’re beating us over the head with them.
- Speaking of which… Libby! Now really, can her meeting Desmond in a coffee shop really be a coincidence? “I just happen to have this boat I don’t need…” Either way, it was good to see her again, and it was a surprisingly strong scene.
- The giant foot was especially unexpected. Colossus of Rhodes? But four toes. Animal? Cartoon character? It doesn’t look like this island will run out of stories any time soon.
- So where does “LOST” leave us? Locke and Eko missing in action, Charile inexplicably unconcerned (but back in with Claire). Michael and Walt heading off to parts unknown. Jack, Kate and Sawyer in custody of the Others (or “the hostiles,” which is a new term for them), and Hurley’s in for a long walk. Will Sayid, Jin and Sun save the day?
- Speaking of Sun, I loved seeing her joining the “merry band of adventurers,” rather than once again left behind to play in her garden or fret on the beach. Jen liked the morning sickness scene.
- Jen also loved the discovery of the pile of canisters and notebooks. Positively eerie. My favorite scene has to be the reunion of Locke and Desmond. “Box man.” The hatch going kablooey was pretty awesome, too.
- How about that Hurley bird? Seems like they’re just having fun with us, rather than dropping a big clue. The “snow globe” reference also falls into that category. Tommy Westphall, anyone?
- Henry says, “We’re the good guys.” Coupled with his now disproven assertion to Locke that the button does nothing, our heads are swimming with what he might know or not know.
- The shippers must be all a titter. Charlie and Claire, Sawyer’s short chat with Kate about nets, Jack’s valiant attempt to rescue Kate… But, what about “the look” Jack and Kate gave each other before they got sacks on their head. I thought I saw Kate give a deliberate blink signal to Jack, maybe a Plan B. Jen was most reminded of the “carbon freezing” scene in The Empire Strikes Back. Aww.
- So the “girl in the picture” was Penny. Jen notes that rules out Penny as the would-be adoptive mother of Claire’s baby. A pity, I kind of liked that theory.
- One thing I don’t get (besides the oblivious Charlie thing). If the Others were after Jack, Kate, and Sawyer, why not nab them when they surrounded them in the forest? They even had Locke to play the “go back and tell them to buzz off” role. And again, why them? At least now we know Hurley wasn’t in the “real” set.
- “Mmm,” Jen said. “Desmond sure cleans up nice.”
- Another book: Charles Dickens’ “Our Mutual Friend.” Summer reading! (I’m really trying to resist picking up “Bad Twin.”)
- Locations: I think the prison Desmond walked out of was Oahu Correctional Center in town. The Pala Ferry pier looked like a combination of ‘Apua Fishpond at Kualoa (where Jin met his dad in an earlier episode) and a seaplane pier off Lagoon Drive near the airport. And the coffee shop was Honolulu Café downtown. That arctic monitoring station could have been anywhere.
Links:
- Playing ‘The Lost Experience’? Share your latest finds here.
- “Live Together, Die Alone” discussion threads at TheFuselage.com and Lost-Forum.com.
Has anyone heard anything about JJ Abrams putting clues about Lost into Mission Impossible 3? I saw it the other night and I caught a mention of a Dr. Wickman. Did anyone else catch anything?
Ethan Hunt used the alias “Kelvin.” Also, the final credits listed The Hanso Foundation.
Here in Canada, we were able to watch the 2 hour finale at 6-8pm EST. So if you don’t want to be spoiled, read no further.
OK, so I have to say that this episode of Lost was SO much better than I would have hoped for. Henry Gale – the ‘real’ leader of the Others; Michael and Walt re-united and released… did anyone else picture their boat exploding at the end as they sailed away? And FINALLY all the background information about Desmond, and a definitive connection to Whidmore Industries.
I was screaming at the television when we learned that the button does indeed “do something” and that it was actually the Pearl Station that was the real joke. Desmond crashed the Oceanic flight was just outstanding.
So we’re left wondering: is Desmond alive or dead? Did Mr. Eko survive? And the Island IS located somewhere as the very end indicated.
Anyone have any theories for next season? Will we get more background information on any of the Others? I’m assuming there will somehow be MUCH more info coming about Desmond’s girlfriend’s involvement with the Island. I don’t know about you, but September won’t come fast enough for me.
Really not necessary to come in and post before everyone else has seen it. Yeah we know, you see it in Canada before us. Stop bragging.
Um, I wasn’t bragging… I said that just in case you didn’t want to read spoilers. It airs at all sorts of different times around the world. And why would you come in here just BEFORE the episode airs in your time zone anyway?
Hey, I’d brag too! Some of us are spoiler whores. Thanks, Sodadood, for some of the tidbits. (Just this afternoon I browsed through Insiderscoop’s spoiler pieces at the ABC forum.) I can’t believe I have to wait another five hours!
Sodadood,
Thank you, thank you. Come in and brag whenever you’d like.
I can’t wait.
PRESS THE BUTTON!
Oh, and if you are looking for a job like I am: http://hansocareers.com/
What the heck did I just watch?
More questions than answers for sure
Desmond’s girlfriend’s dad(Mr. Widmore) arranged for Desmond to make it to the hatch so that he would forever be out of the life of his daughter. She has been spending her unlimited money and resources to hunt for him, knowing that he would someday cause the electromagnetic pulse. Not-Henry Gale as the real Other leader…perfect.
When Michael asked Henry”who are you guys,henry says” we are the good guys”…I think he believes that so there is much more than meets the eye. remember we still have sayid to save the day.
this one left me hanging. i have a number of questions
-what is the deal with the giant foot that sayid saw on the boat with jin and sun?
-why did charlie act as if nothing happened? he just went back to camp and did his thing with clare. no worries about eko and locke.
-was that really sayid’s smoke signal? it seemed alot like the pillar of smoke from previous episodes.
-the un-henry gale? friend or foe? his line “we’re the good guys” threw me off a bit.
-if the “others” know how to find help and get rescued…why dont they?
i have more questions, but i wont bore you. it was a great episode but alot of things seemed rushed. the whole boat thing with libby was quite akward
can’t believe what i just saw. who’s dead/alive? where’s sayib and the sailboat? did this latest incident bring down another plane? and if the plane’s crashing was random, then why were we treated to 2 years of character cross-paths.
Wow. Huzzah. All hail. This was the real deal.
But let’s inventory:
Is Locke dead? Is Eko dead? Is Desmond dead? How did Charlie manage to get back to camp with just some scratches and a bad earache? Have Michael and Walt been set up? What awaits our other pals when the burlap sacks come off? Where have Sayid-JIn-Sun been since the system failure? How did Desmond’s girlfriend know to look for electromagnetic anomalies?
I’m sure you all will have a hundred more similar questions. But here’s something to speculate about: if “Henry Gale” is Him, what was he doing wandering around the jungle alone when he got caught in Rousseau’s net trap? Doesn’t make sense. Maybe there is still yet another “Him”.
A great episode, with some unforgettable imagery. The pile of notebooks piled up by the phony pneumatic tube was just surreal. Etcetera,etcetera. We’ll be talking about this stuff all summer! So let’s begin.
I don’t think that the compass bearing Henry Gale gave to Michael is going to work in getting him rescued now that the electromagnetic “incident” has flipped out the island. Also, interesting that Sayid’s captor in Iraq was Desmond’s roomy.
Wow. FANTASTIC finale in my opinion.
I guess I was on the money about the Pearl being ‘the experiment’:
http://www.hawaiiup.com/lost/2006/05/10/the-question-mark/#comment-1811
http://www.hawaiiup.com/lost/2006/05/10/the-question-mark/#comment-1883
(Then again, a stopped clock is right twice a day.)
I love that it answered so many questions (Desmond crashing the plane is BRILLIANT) and yet left so much unanswered.
Sodadood — definitely wondering whether Michael and Walt on the boat is a trap. I too expected bad things to happen. I guess we’ll have to wait to find out. Interestingly (in my opinion), if the electromagnetic field is destroyed, the compass on the ferry should work and Michael and Walt should indeed be able to leave. I wonder if the Others are aware of this.
I too am wondering what will come of Eko and Locke… hopefully still alive as they’re great characters.
Other thoughts I had —
* I wonder if Libby was a part of Dharma? She got Desmond (indirectly) to the island.
* Also wondering if Kelvin was a plant by Dharma (I could have sworn there were multiple men in yellow suits at the beginning) on the island. The day he “lured” Desmond out — Kelvin knew a little too much to not be in on it — was the day of Oceanic 815, which he indirectly got Sayid onto. Maybe there was a plan to bring down that flight, but it seems fairly clear that it’s not purgatory.
* Are the Others part of Dharma, or other former subjects who have been enlightened? I have a hunch it’s the latter.
* Is Penny Widmore looking for Desmond and that’s why she got the call? Or is she working for dad’s company and happens to be the person they notify if all heck breaks loose? I can’t imagine that Penny would be able — despite all her money and resources — to figure out that an electromagnetic disturbance halfway around the world would be attirbutable to Desmond (!) if nobody else has been able to locate the other Losties.
* Any connection between the ice scene at the end and the polar bear?
* Why send Hurley back to the camp? Just to scare people? Or maybe the Others ARE running the experiments…
As a last thought, Sawyer’s line about the parrot crapping gold was GREAT.
I can’t wait till next fall.
So for the scenes in the snow, did they Lost crew shoot on Mauna Kea? Or was that CGI?
Locke It Up — I just don’t buy that Penny Widmore would somehow know that her father would somehow sabotage Desmond’s (Libby’s?) boat from the race around the world, get him to the island, train him for THREE YEARS to think the EMP was so critical, somehow hire people to search for this (again for THREE YEARS), MISS the first time the system failed and the EMP went off, and somehow find this one. It just seems like too much of a stretch. I think she works for daddy’s company and is the point person. Oh, the dramatic irony. But I suppose we’ll learn next fall.
Will F — I was under the impression that turning the key turned off the electromagnetic generator. That was what Kelvin implied (when drunk). So the compasses might in fact work since there’s no abnormal magentism on the island any more. This is why I wonder if the Others actually are part of Dharma or just subjects who learned a bit too much and got fed up but now can’t figure out how to get the eff off the island. 🙂
What about the look between Jack and Kate? Was that a ‘hey, you’re the best. i hope we live so we can make out’ look or a ‘hey, now we do the plan we talked about earlier off-camera’ look? It really seemed like they had something going on there, more than the love triangle thing. And what, turning the key disperses all that energy and turns the sky violet? Weird.
How did Desmond’s girlfriend know to look for electromagnetic anomalies?
This has me wondering too. Perhaps she’s in on Dharma.
So, if last season’s cliffhanger was the hatch, and this season we have learned that it was in fact real, what are we in store for next season? The focus for next season leans towards discovering who the others are, but are there other possibilities? Will we still be kept in the dark?
Any thoughts?
Did anyone notice what the computer screen said at the end of the episode? All I caught was “Electromagnetic (something something).” Maybe it’s not significant, but it’s bugging me not to know.
Among other more serious questions (and we, too, had many of those listed above)…….where does Desmond get the *mountains* of alcohol he consumed both on the boat and as he arrived back on the island?
why can’t we solve some answers here,,,where is the black monster thing?
what do the others know,do.or are they lost too?
the show is really running for the money is it not????
yyyyeeesss money ..commercials…hello!!!,,
is anyone getting tied of being lost?
lost,lost,lost…….im going to get lost see ya!!!!
Cady, i think that it said, “magnetic anomaly detected”. I also think that Hurley is too angry at what he discovered about Michael to keep his mouth shut when he goes back to camp. Also, I think that Sayid was close enough to see what happened. What incentive does Hurley have to lie to his friends? Especially when un-Henry says they are taking the others home? WTF?
It was a fantastic episode, but I felt it was predictable. Mainly because I read the call sheet. They promised that the season finale would shock. How is the fact that Penny Widmore is searching for Desmond shocking? I’m sorry. I just don’t get it.
Emily & Amy – regarding your question about all the alcohol – I noticed at least a couple of times that Desmond was gulping down bottles of booze with the Dharma logo on the side… so no doubt there must be a stash of those around somewhere easily accessible – either that or he stashed some before his departure where only he’d know where to find them.
Something else about the episode seemed off: Libby giving Desmond the boat out of the blue… and if she ended up in the same mental institute as Hurley, how’d she end up there? Even if she was working for Dharma in some capacity, for her to be killed by Michael wouldn’t make much sense. Plus, if she WAS working for Dharma, wouldn’t she have disappeared into the “Others” camp when she arrived on the island?
I gotta say… this season finale has got me more hooked on the show than ever. And I’m ok with not knowing everything at the moment (like where Rousseau is at during all of this, the black monster, how Kelvin could fix a boat when he couldn’t fix the rip in his bio-hazzard suit, etc.)
I guess the filmed some scenes with Walt a LONG time ago, meaning they had this planned out for a while. It was pretty obvious that some of the shots had a Walt stand-in though. I’m guessing we won’t be seeing Michael for a while… but hey… isn’t this the first episode where we’ve seen what has been going on in the outside world?
Must say this is the best season finale so far. Alias was a bit of a let down, 24 was great, but Lost tops them all!
If Sayid doesn’t save the day, there is always Rousseau’s daughter, Alex. She helped Claire & talked with Michael when the Others captured them. I feel like Alex is waiting for just the right moment before she goes against the people who brought her up. What was up with the bird swooping down? And, If Desmond’s key turned off the electromagnetic source, does this mean that the people who were healed when they got to the island (Locke, Rose, Jin) will go back to the way they were pre-crash?
Stop! I can’t take anymore. Tremendous! Absolutely the best finale I’ve ever seen! So different from any other episode!
THINGS I LOVED:
Eko and Locke battling with their sticks like a couple of Jedi
Jack nearly getting postal on Michael
Eko locked out of the hatch and freaking out
Hurley’s realizing Michael killed Libby
Fake Henry Gale asserting his authority
The electromagnetic field crushing everything around it
The blinding light thing
Charlie’s deafening experience
Desmond regaining his hope
The true love of Penny Whidmore still willing to look for Desmond
Charlie getting a hot kiss from Claire
Hey guys did none of u catch the the mysterious quote??- first when Locke 1st saw desmond on the beach drunk, he told desmond “was does one snowman say to the other?”, desomond says “I smell carrots” or something like that.. well in the flash back 4 desmond, the first thing Kelvin tells desmond as he brings desmond into the hatch is”what does one snowman say to the other” and desmond says “what” (cuz he didnt know) and Kelvin says “your not the one”. hmmm very interesting like some type of password to pass on to the next guy, maybie he knew locke was supposed to be the one and how do they(kelvin & locke -who dont know eachother) both know the same saying,, thats to be seen next yr I can’t friggin wait, great finale by far..
Super Dave The reason locke knows that question is becuase desmond asked him the question in the first or second episode this season. locke did’nt give desmond the answer, and now after being reunited locke asked him the question , “so, what does one snowman say to the other”
Not as many answers as we were led to believe … I thought that detailed explanations were going to be given to each and every Lostie as to why they were selected for being brought to the island. At the risk of minimizing the answers, all we were given was that a mistake made by Desmond (by entering the numbers late) caused the Oceanic flight to crash.
Okay, The Giant Foot.
“The Collosus of Rhodes”
comes to Mind And ….
Didn’t ATLANTIS have a Giant Staue of Hercules Standing Across it’s Harbor? Stradle
This All Could Be Lost…L O S T
“”LOST”” City Of ATLANTIS Stuff the Huge Light and Power source monitored/Exploited by Hanso-Theives….Hail Atlantis across the Ocean”.
The British Military Found It, Hanso Financed it ,with US Military Help
Member Zim Guy telling Desmond “I followed Orders”
Time Travel….
The Two Russians were Triangulating the E M P
for “pen” (didn’t they Say: “We missed it again?”
Oh and “FakeHenry’ Gale is not Mr Big ..Just Mr. Medium..kinda like a Gestopo Man (Goebels comes to mind)
as for michael:
I want Him And His Son To Blow UP!!!”””
Hail Atlantis across the Ocean””
Wow… A lot of build up and only more questions. I expected some cliffhangers but I hoped for more answers. I agree with comments posted previously that Charlie acting oblivious after the EMP explosion (?) was a little wack. Traditionally EMP is thought to affect electrical circuits (like a neutron bomb); however, it should have had some affect on the human body as well. I am sure some one in this group knows more than and I (please explain). If it had truly affected the electrical circuits the boats motor should have fried though (one would think).
I do not get the whole science tent in the North/South Pole and the waiting game for the “anomaly.” Definitely seemed far-fetched. I do not think Libby was apart of the Dharma Initiative, more “magical/mysterious” connections than methodical intentions (IMHO). I am still pissed at Michael. I do not really see any redemption value in him coming back to save the day. He is a murderer and I hope the boat blows up, sinks, etc. If anything maybe Hurley will drop a few pounds getting lost on the way back to, camp and show up mid-season next year a new man. Claire will dump Charlie (can we say relapse :-)) and Hurley will finally get the girl.
I just hope they do not start having guest appearances by “stars” or I may just have to jump ship. If Tom Cruise shows up on the Island… Hey maybe this is some how connected to Scientology and all their brain washing mumbo jumbo.
Last but not least. What was up with Sayid finally getting in some prayers to Mecca (by the way how did he know what direction it was?)? I know, I know he is former Republican Guard, ya ya ya. If you ask me it was, just PC crap thrown in by the studio to further the apologetic attitude of Hollywood towards Islam. We never saw him pray before; it is a little late for “authenticity” if you ask me. Maybe ABC will gain some viewers on Al Jezeera…
Thinking over the episode, I found it enjoyable, but not the end-game finale Abrams warped it to be. I feel as though alot of questions are unanswered. I don’t mean big questions. I mean to say many small tidbits are still not tied at the end of this season.
Now perhaps this is a device to use later, bring up where Cindy/the kids are, explain more about the Others…have our war? But for the average viewer, I am not sure how this will all tie in.
I like this show alot, and I’ve kept my faith, but I must say it is currently in a stall. I’m nervous, and anxious about next season’s success and satisfaction.
WOW, by far the best episode of lost
I completely called that desmond brouhgt the plane down, but that was just because i read the call sheet. lol. Big question here, how did pen know to look for electromagnetic forces. She said before that she had enough money to find anyone, but did she know that he was on the island? I guess it’s just something to look forward to next season. i sense a big confrontation with sayid and “Henry” next season and what about the foot? Really wierd. Ryan and Jen, please keep some new topics during the off season so us losties can still post and discuss teh greates show on television. thanks
Yes hello to all of you who watched the fantastic second last show of lost,
it was all thumbs up!
I think i figured out what the mysterious power source is underneath the
hatch that was blow up at the end of the show… its a miniture unstable worm hole!
Yes thats right an interdimensional gate way to other places. Pushing that button kept it from collapsing in on itself; also how that is achived is anybody’s
guess especially with 1980 computers. Extremely high doses of electromagnetic radiation can cause people to see things that aren’t there.
So the EM. radiation came from the wormhole which caused people to halucinate. How’s that for an explanation?
correction it was the last seasons finale
Superdave — I wonder about the quote as well. For a show on a tropical island there sure is a lot of snow (polar bears, references to snow globes and snow men, and then hte conclusion). The snowman line has home up several times now, and Desmond’s answer — which sounds like a bad joke — is probably not the “right” one. It may be a Dharma inside joke. I wonder if Walt, being a child, would have provided a similar answer instead of just going, “WHAT?,” and that’s why they want him.
Sodadood — regarding Libby, I wonder if she’s not a part of Dharma/Hanso/Widmore. Perhaps she was sent to the psych institution to do something to Lenny, who knew the numbers on the hatch (and for all we know was once “Lost” or in Dharma. Perhaps she was with the DeGroots (hence the background as a clinical psychologist). Maybe even — like Alex Rousseau — she was a sympathizer with the Losties or subversive to Dharma in some other way, and that’s how she wound up on the plane. I don’t know how to tie it all up.
And also — I think Kelvin *could* have fixed his suit. But why bother, since it’s unneeded? He drew attention to Desmond — SOMETHING about that day was out of the ordinary — and Desmond noticed the not-very-subtle rip. Maybe he wanted Desmond out of the hatch to the EMP would go off because he/Dharma/the Others/whoever were trying to get Oceanic 815 down. That would explain the interconnectedness of the passengers and Kelvin/Inman. Desmond may have inadvertently downed the place, but been set up to do so.
Hey!
Penny is the female counterpart to ruining this experiment. This is actually her island. Maybe her Dad gave it to her and he’s a “retired” leader. Since she is so “rich” she can find it anywhere. It used to be in the “snow belt” of the ocean, hence the Polar bear from season 1.
With the foreshadowing of snow fom the plane…it looks like it is well on its way back to the “snow belt”. The others have kept it in place for their experiment in and ideal location temperature wise. Everytime if they don’t reset the button it moves.
That is why he said “i’m pressing it to save the world”. The experiment is to save the world….The others are really good and Penny is BAD news trying to get in on the experiment. She is the Devil.
Did anyone else get a “Planets of the Apes” vibe from this episode? Desmond being dragged through the forest by a rope, Desmond chasing Kelvin across the rock formation, the giant broken statue on the beach? Several times during the show I kept thinking of that. And in Planet of the Apes the end game was that they were on Earth but at a different time than when they left it.
Please clue me in. Who was Inman? I must have missed that. Also, just a comment, I was really surprised that Charlie was so intent on saving his friend, Eko, and after he got away from the hatch and learned that Eko & Lock did not get out, he was so unconcerned. I found that difficult to buy. That was a “huh??!” moment for me.
i can’t resolve the image of the foot statue on the beach. apart from historical references to hesperopithecus, fossilized man, chinese dragons, and bigfoot, why 4 toes? none of these were all man-i didn’t see ant fur carved into the rock. anyone have ideas of what the foot is from?
Nobody has mentioned yet what baffled me the most. Desmond said he saw Locke banging on the hatch window, bathed in light, three days BEFORE the crash. Any thoughts?
Pinkk — I think it was three days before Locke got into the hatch, not three days before the plane crash. Kelvin was still in the hatch with Desmond three days earlier.
Anyone have any idea why Kelvin was painting (presumably) the map on the blast door in irridescent paint? That was another “huh?” moment… though now we know how it got there.
Is anyone else pissed that Vincent got left behind?
;O)
I can’t believe that some of you find this episode “lacking” in anyway shape or form. I think that there were plenty of answers, yet plenty of new questions that arose. Isn’t how the show can continue? A fantastic two hours of television.
I think Charlie’s lack of concern is important and will somehow make more sense next season. Remember, Locke also showed a lack of concern toward Charlie and Eko when they were both out there with the dynamite. Desmond, however showed concern and thought it might be unwise to go against the wishes of “a priest.” Will island healing play a part in Season 3? Charlie got out so quickly. Did he bi-locate like Walt? This show can go lots of places now.
Why if the Others wanted Kate, Jack and Sawyer didn’t they take them when they had them before with Locke and send Locke back? Why make them go back and then have someone go to fetch them again?